Connecting Moments of Boredom and Running Wild in the Woods to Great Storytelling - Interview with Author S.D. Smith

PODCAST Season 2 Episode 9 with S.D. Smith

Ginny: Welcome to The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. We have lots of special guests with us today which I'm super excited about.

This is a podcast with Sam Smith, or you might know him as SD Smith, the author of The Green Ember series, which we are just absolutely loving as a family. And then we have some other special guests with us today and they are going to introduce themselves. We'll start with Josh.

Josh: My name is Joshua and I’m 11 years old. I enjoy reading and playing sports. I want to be an author. My favorite Green Ember book is Last Archer. 

Charlie: My name is Charlie and I’m 10 years old and I really enjoy reading and playing Legos.

Ginny: All right, we're so happy to have everyone today. Josh, we’re going to have you introduce Sam for us.

Josh: S.D. Smith is the author of The Green Ember and a best selling Green Ember adventure saga. The Green Ember has reached hundreds of thousands of readers and spent time as a number one best selling audio book in the world. The stories are captivating readers across the globe who are hungry for new stories. Families can't get enough of these.

When he's not writing adventurous tales of rabbits with swords in his writing office dubbed The Forge, Smith loves to speak to audiences about stories, imagination, and seeing yourself as the character in the story. SD Smith lives in West Virginia with his wife and four kids.

Ginny: All right, so we met in person last month, although we had known about you already for a long time. Last month or maybe a month before that we met at the Cincinnati Great Homeschool Convention. And we arrived without enough reading material, which was a big deal for my kids. You know, we got there and they didn’t have anything to read. They were supposed to pack their own stuff in and didn't bring enough books.

And so the conference was about to start and I was perusing trying to find books for us to read. And we came over to your booth. I actually already had your first book, but we just had it on the shelf, we hadn't gotten to it yet and all the kids were wanting to read your books. And I've got a stack of them here now. We got the stack at the conference. And we actually bought three copies of the first book because we have five kids and everybody wanted to get started. And so they spent the weekend with their noses in the book. I mean, everywhere we were walking - they had the book opened in every restaurant. So we were so thankful. And one of the things I noticed was your booth was always jam packed, right? And that’s at every conference. 

Sam: There tends to be... we draw a crowd, it seems like every time. 

Ginny: So you have this cool booth where we got some T-shirts and our kids love the book. 

Well, one of the things I really noticed was that you had family there and that really drew me in. You had your kids and nieces. Your brother, I think you said, was there. And so one of the things for us that as a family that we have been exploring over the last couple of years is involving kids in adult work, especially as they get older and older.

And I was going to read this book, this quote from a John Hope book. Which is called Learning All the Time, and he says,

“Children need to get some sense of the processes by which good work is done. The only way they can learn how much time and effort it takes to build a table or to write a book is to be able to see someone building a table from start to finish or painting a picture or repairing a bicycle or writing a story or whatever it may be. 

Adults must use the skills they have where children can see them.” And he says, “In the unlikely event that they have no skills,” which sometimes I think we feel like that, “they can learn something and let the children see them learning. They should invite children to join them. And using these skills in this way, children can be drawn at higher and higher levels of energy, commitment and skill into more and more serious and worthwhile adult activities.”

So that was sort of what I got out of your booth, just sort of meeting you for the first time and seeing children there helping and, you know, learning how to use the different equipment. So we would love to hear about your family and how they're involved in what you do.

Sam: Thank you, Ginny, and thank you, Charlie and Josh. It's so cool to be talking to you guys and everyone who's listening. It's a real honor for me. Thanks for having me on. It's really encouraging. Your words are very encouraging. And I saw some of the pictures of the kids and I saw they're liking the books. And it was really encouraging and sweet and that means a lot to me. So thank you guys.

And Josh, I'm looking for a hype man so with that intro, man. My brother Josiah usually does that for me, but I don't know, man, you could give him a run for his money. So just think about it. Just be on standby, ready to come off the bench at any moment.

Yeah, it was so cool to meet you guys. And we obviously knew about you. We've got the 1000 Hours Outside chart going in our families. And I was like, oh, this is the person. I was like, everyone was talking about that. So it's so cool to meet you and your family. You guys were so encouraging. And that was just an awesome start. 

And there weren't as many people at that conference as there usually are. So it was nice to meet you guys right off the bat. That was very encouraging for us. And yeah, I think it was even my daughter who was helping you guys there. And I think she was just like, you need to meet this lady. Like, she came over to me, was like, you need to meet this lady. Like, she's super nice and she's buying all kinds of books.

And anyway, yeah, we're a team, you know, just I think like you guys and I agree so much with what you read there about. I don't know how much of it for us is just sort of like culture versus sort of like intention, like definitely some intention, like we want to think about it. And I've always been a little bit of like an explain up, don't dumb it down kind of a person. That's just kind of been my heart. 

Like even just talking about big ideas, philosophy, theology, politics or history. I've always been like, no, let's like we don't have to settle for sort of, you know, the lowest common denominator or whatever. Like, let's say if you don't understand a word, let's just learn the word and let's not, you know, not live in ignorance. 

And we've got to speak and contextualize, you know, at times especially for young young kids. But I think for me, my storytelling harmonizes... my series, my books they have a lot of respect for kids as readers. Like if there's a decision between oh, make this super, super low level so everybody in the world can grasp it or go ahead and lean into this - it is a little complicated and trust the kids to be able to sort of walk through that. I always lean towards trust the kids and respect them.

And partly because I've met so many of my readers and they're brilliant kids. They have such a capacity for understanding that blows me away. My favorite authors did that. Madeleine L’Engle trusted kids, like people told her, you know, this Wrinkle in Time, it's like way too mature for kids. And she's like, well, I don't agree. And she was proven right. I think my favorite authors have always taken young readers very seriously. So, yeah. In our family and our work, it's just like it's hard to know where the lines are as far as like what is a child labor goes, you know, child slavery and what is, but just to be I think inclusive of kids and that's sort of what we're trying to model even here.

Ginny: You know, these boys both just love your books and were excited to join in. What I see as a culture is that kids are very siphoned off from the adult world. You know, that was kind of my experience, not that it was, you know, awful or anything. But you know, you spend these years in a school building and you don't you're kind of directed what to do, but you don't really see the behind the scenes. You don't really see what's going on. 

And so I really loved meeting your daughter. You know, right before the conference started, it was like five minutes before it started. I was in a rush. And my kids are like, we're bored, you know, “Why did you bring anything?” You know, they really need books. And I think your daughter was trying to figure out the computer systems, and it was right at the beginning. So, you know, she was just making sure that everything worked. And I thought, well, those are important skills, you know, to have those experiences, to talk to people. And I'm seeing something that really drew me into what you were doing right off the bat, because it's something that we haven't always thought about. But over the past couple of years, I've tried to think about more.

I just want to say I really enjoy your books. You know, I'm like, I’ve got to read these books, right? I'm just flipping pages, so enthralled. So I think that's a special skill to be able to write in a way that entertains both children and adults. It's not very common. So I really enjoyed it. 

Sam: Thank you. And it just harmonizes what we're talking about. I don't think of it as, oh, this is something that I will enjoy and this is something that the kids will enjoy. And I have to adapt it in this incredible way. Even the best art I think out there, like you think about Pixar movies aren't just like, oh, an eight year old loves that or a five year old. I'm forty-five almost and I love it the same as my nine year old.

That's my favorite kind of art, The Chronicles of Narnia, that kind of thing. Like who doesn't enjoy that? I don't know if I would trust somebody who's like no, that's too childish. 

And I totally agree with your whole approach on involving kids. I think that's the best way to learn. It's so natural. What is more powerful than being kind of walked through something together, sharing something together and what is more like sort of empowering than to know as a child we're this family in our family business, like what we do as a family together, whether it's ministry or work, whatever, like we need you and we're all in this together. And when we clean up the house for whatever parts we're playing, they all matter and they all have dignity and worth and value. And you, yeah - You're six years old, but you contribute to this family like you do, and that's the way you're loving and serving us and we're loving and serving you. Yeah. We're all in this together. So I love your approach. I think I totally harmonizes with what we're trying to do in our home. 

Ginny: Now, one of the things that we were going to talk about is actually your childhood. When I look around, I see we have very career focused childhood practices where, you know, starting from a very young age, it sometimes even begins in the womb. You know, we're playing Mozart and, you know, we're aiming to put our kids into these prestigious colleges and we're spending a whole lot of childhood time and energy and effort and money on programs. 

I think that people would maybe look at you and see the stack of books, you know, and think, wow, he must have gone to some prestigious thing and did all the things. But you have a little bit of a different story. And so we'd love to hear what you feel from your childhood contributed to your success as an author and as a father. 

Sam: Well, to summarize, it would be thousands of hours outside, I think that would be that's all. And I know it's definitely true. 

It's funny because I wasn't a super literary kid. I learned to read and everything from a young age like a lot of people do. But I didn't practice reading. I didn't know culturally a lot of boys or men that I knew that were reading a whole lot. My dad did and so did my Uncle Paul and a few others. But I didn't have a lot of peers that were reading a lot. I was like, oh, that's something that the young girls did, which is so messed up. And I hate that answer. I love to hear like Charlie and Josh, I'm so glad you're here. And like, every time I connect with a young male reader, I'm like, yeah, because honestly boys are just way behind girls still, even though it's probably better than it was when I was a kid.

But anyway. Yeah, so where I exercised those imaginative muscles and really started young. We lived really far back in the woods. We lived in a holler, as we call it in West Virginia - the hollow between two mountains. We lived back in the holler and my dad used to joke that I didn't know it was a joke when I was a kid. But he said that we lived so far back in the woods that no one lived behind us. And as a kid, I was always like, “That is cool.” You know, my fantasy mind was like, wow, nobody lives behind this. And maybe I'll write a story about that someday.

But we played out in the woods so, so much. And I didn't really put it together until later that I was already sort of preparing for my vocation because we were making things. I was making a fleet of paper airplanes or airplanes out of bark from trees or fighter ships or something. And I was always playing something and acting some kind of a drama in my mind. And I was building worlds and I was making things way before I was a wordsmith. I was a wordsmith. I was making worlds. And now it is a full time job. So it's kind of cool. It's kind of a cool job to be able to continue the playing, you know, in this stage of life. And I really feel I'm doing what I was put on earth to do when I went out telling stories, because it feels so natural to me, feels like childhood.

And really boredom was a big key to that. I know it's so hard for me now to not be bored because of this thing [points to cell phone], you know, because I've got access to information and stimulus and news and anything and any time entertainment or whatever. And it's just there's a real downside, a real cost to that.

And I think the gift of being bored as a kid, being allowed to be bored a little bit, not in a cruel way - I don't think my parents looked at it as like you need to be bored. I don't think they were thinking that. They're just like, “Go play.” That's what was normal for people. And we did that. And I think that was just so crucial. There's probably nothing that's been more formative for me as a storyteller and in my vocation than those early years of my life being playing in imagination and going running wild in the woods of West Virginia. That's just so powerful. 

Ginny: Yeah, you can see it. You can see it in your storytelling, like with the star game and, you know, the descriptors. And, you can see that this is a person who loved nature himself. And he found joy in simple things.

I think as a society, there's a lot of pressure to really fill all the spaces of childhood.. And that is deemed as what's the most important thing. Nowadays there's so many good things that you can enroll your kids in. I think it takes a lot of backbone to not do it and to say, you know, we're going to have downtime or just go play, you know, it feels frivolous. But it’s really awesome to hear your story.

I read, I think, in a Stephen King biography that he didn't have a television. Well, that was interesting. You know, it's like that storytelling comes out of his imaginative place and you wonder if things will be affected, you know, 10, 20, 30 years down the road. And, you know, if we will have a generation of kids who haven't played like how you were able to play, and if that can affect storytelling at all. 

Sam: Mm hmm. Yeah, I actually agree with you and I'm glad you said that. There's a lot of good things. It's not just like, oh, terrible shows on TV or or whatever things that we as parents might be like, concerned like, oh, we're doing social media is doing this to our brains. And it's not just that. It's like it can be like church or sports or tutoring and then there’s just no down time.

We recently sort of pulled back from doing travel soccer. My kids love soccer, I love soccer. We still do rec and local soccer kind of stuff. But we were traveling an awful lot. It was a good culture and it was good for the kids in a lot of ways. But it was such a good decision for us to kind of pull back from that, even though we had one particularly one son who was just a very, very talented soccer player, who maybe has a future in it in some ways. And it'd be so tempting just to travel all the time for soccer and spend, you know, a huge amount of time and money.

But it's been a gift to kind of pull back and not do that. And, yeah, I'm just totally with you that there's that there are so many gifts in just saying no to things. 

Ginny:  Yeah. Yeah, that's really encouraging. I think parents will find it very encouraging to hear that your story, your success traces back to boredom, 

Sam: That you can make them bored and they will write rabbit stories. It's a game. We guarantee it. And you can get a refund from Ginny if it doesn't work. That's all I'm saying. 

Ginny: OK, so the boys have some questions that they are going to ask you. Then they can talk back and forth if they ask the other things that they think about. And so I'm going to turn it over to them for a little bit. Charlie has the first one.

Charlie: OK, so where did you know you wanted to become a writer? 

Sam: Cool question, Charlie, man. How old are you? Ten? Is that correct? 

OK, so I was a little bit younger than you. So it's again, it's a little bit weird because I wasn't reading a whole lot as a kid. As a young man I did. But people would read to us, you know, in school. 

And so I had a teacher, Miss Gunnar, who read a book called Little Women. And if you get your chance to read that one, Charlie it's really, it's so good. So she read that book to us and I totally loved it. I love the character of Jo March. She's, you know, she's so crazy and does all kinds of cool stuff. And she's very active. She's very passionate. So, you know, she was a writer. And I guess before that, I had this sort of imagination of a writer as being distant or like British or, you know, like me - I’m an American country boy from Westwood. I never knew anybody that was an author or anything like that. So it kind of felt like I was like an astronaut or it's just something really distant.

But when I heard that story, you know, I heard about Jo and she was writing. I thought that was super cool. And then I don't know if it was the teacher that told us that Louisa May Alcott was kind of Jo in her own life. I got really interested in Louisa May Alcott, and she just felt closer to me. And so it felt attainable. Oh, Louisa May Alcott. She's like me. She's just a kid that grew up in America. And I don't know if for some reason that that kind of made it more accessible to me. And then I was like, oh, well, that's something that people can do. Why would you do anything else? I really thought that, like, as a first grader. And so I would write little stories and that's kind of how it began. And really that would come and go throughout my life.

And I really didn't start doing this more seriously, probably till I was in my thirties. I guess I'd spend some time. I was always doing some kind of creative thing like poetry or I used to write. I still kind of write songs. I was like a singer-songwriter kind of type. I did that for a long time. There was always like stuff coming out of me, you know, whether it's good or not. But eventually I sort of really focused on writing and storytelling, but I sort of trace it back to that time. And I felt like almost like you just describe the word haunted, even though we usually think of that as like a scary word that I would think of, like being haunted by the vocation of a storyteller that was sort of the kind of thing that would play in my mind. So it's kind of a slow, slow thing. But I think part of it started back there and in first grade with Miss Gunnar and Little Women. 

Ginny:  Oh, it's interesting. I had read this book called Rich Habits, Poor Habits, And they have this test for parents to look at what are the habits of successful people. And one of the things they say is to read biographies. You know, and that was interesting because I wouldn't have known that you didn't start this set of books until you were in your 30s. What was your of career path? You know, you think people just land, but not always. This is a journey. What was your career path up until that point? 

Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great insight. I feel like that's so powerful because I mean, I know a lot of authors now and it's like it's always just zigzaggy kind of a thing and it's never straight. And I'd be curious to hear about how you landed, kind of what you're doing now and if and how that I'm sure that probably wasn't a straight line like I always knew I was getting what I think. 

Ginny: Yeah, a lot longer than what people think. You know, they see you on a podcast or they see you at a conference, but don't know that there's a decade plus of time behind that. And I'm curious, what was your career up until, you know, what were you doing? 

Sam: Well, my last job, like all the jobs I had before, were kind of like jobs. And they weren't necessarily like the vocations of my heart. They were good. And my dad always taught me that all work was honorable work. So I literally had a job cleaning toilets and gas stations. I worked at fast food. I worked at this all through college. And so as a drug treatment counselor for a while. I worked at Sam's Club for a while. I worked at a bearing company where I delivered bearings and gears and Sprockets to coal mines and things.

My last job for about ten years was in adult education. I would do testing and assessment, kind of like the GED for folks who were trying to transition from welfare to work. So that was my last kind of job. That was a good job for me in a lot of ways. I enjoyed it. It was a good opportunity for me to help people. And I drove all over the state of West Virginia and had a lot of time to kind of think in the car and listen to stories and things. So that was a good job. But I've only been doing this full time for probably, I don't know, maybe for three or four years, something like that. 

Ginny: Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't realize it was that brand new.

Sam: I'm brand new, really. We're just we're just getting started with it. And people say that to me, too. Like they see you're selling books or you're being interviewed or whatever. There's always a lot of young authors who are like, “I want to do what you did. Tell me how to do it.” And I'm always like, you do not want that. We need our own journeys, our own pain, you know, because so much of it has to do with pain and conflict and challenges to prepare you to have the capacity to tell the kinds of stories that resonate with people in this heartfelt way.

So don't trade with me. You do your thing, what you're called to do. And I'm sure that's the best part. 

Ginny: I think the messages about a zigzaggy part and that we take life day by day and life goes is a journey and that's part of the beauty of it.

Sam: Yeah, that's right. 

Josh: How do you deal with writer's block?

Sam: Josh, writer's block, you trigger me, man. This is a trigger question. This is a good one. This might be controversial. Who knows? This could be the place where the podcast takes a downward turn. Here's my theory, man.

And I know I'd love to hear what you think about this, but I do not believe in writer's block. Like, I think that writers are weird people in a good way. I think you have to be a little bit wild to be a writer because it's a really audacious thing to do. I'm going to sit and invest a huge amount of time in putting symbols onto a page or onto a flashing screen from my mind. And then I expect that to be printed into a book or some kind of device or audio. And then I want other people to spend their time engaging with my thoughts and my words. It's like it's super audacious, maybe a little bit arrogant. 

But I think a lot of the cool things in life, like, you know, if you're going to try to be an astronaut, if you're going to try to play in the NBA or whatever, like those are all sort of like audacious things to do. And the people who do it are just like, wow, I'm just going to try it anyway. I'm going to go for it. And so I like people like that. And I am one of those people.

This is a big, big subject that I could talk about. I'm going to try to limit myself because I can talk about a long time, but I do kind of believe that for me, I have sort of a worldview that is really deeply informed by my faith as a Christian. So I think about my vocation is sort of like two things, that as a storyteller, it's like this really magical thing that's really beautiful and incredible and kind of glorious and miraculous. And it's like, wow, how did this happen? Like my experience with reading C.S. Lewis or Louisa May Alcott or Madeline Langel or these people are like Jane Austen, whatever. I'm just like eating it up and it's just I'm transported and it's this magical things. So, it's really important to hold on to that with one hand.

But then I have this other hand. It's really important too, which is it's just an ordinary vocation, like it's rooted in love and service. I don't feel you're superior to someone who makes meatloaf for kids. Like, that's a great job. You're serving people and loving or cleaning toilets, which I've done. I don't feel superior to the plumber or the pastor or the teacher or the dad or the mom. We're all in the same kind of business. We're doing things for other people. So I find it holding those two things, maybe in tension at the same time, I never, ever want to let go of that. This is a service industry job and I'm not superior. This isn't my ticket to become a culturally elite or something like that. This is like making PB and J for kids. That's generally how I feel about it. 

I also never want to lose track of the fact that it is kind of a magical thing. It's really special. So I hold those things in tension a little bit and I don't want to downplay either one because I believe both are really true. So it's a little bit of a paradox or a mystery. But in that I think sometimes when we're too heavy on this sort of like it's magical and amazing stuff, we sort of tend to be very self indulgent about it. Like, well, I'm a precious author and an artist. Therefore the rules don't apply to me, which sometimes can be really bad. Like I can be a jerk, I can be really mean to people because I'm an artist and that's how we are. That's our temperament. Like, no, no, all the all the same rules about being kind to your neighbor, they still apply to you if you're a best selling author or an artist or whatever like you. You can't just be the rules aren't different for you and me.

So I tend to think, like, if you're a plumber you can't come in the morning and just say like I'm sorry, I've got like a washer repairman block, you know, so I can't I can't show up and do this today. Or like if you had surgery I can't just show up there and the surgeon's like, I'm sorry, I've got surgeons block today or I've got mom's block today. So I'm sorry I won't be able to be your mother today. What other job or vocation are you allowed to do that in? 

Maybe that’s a little bit too harsh, but I think that's kind of a good way to think. Like, I think that we would be better as authors if we just, more or less, like I'm here to do a job. And it's good, it's special. Like when the muse shows up, it's really, really magical and incredible. There's like fairy dust, all kinds of crazy stuff happening. It's really cool. But also like, hey, I'm serving a meal, so I'm showing up for that. And so it's helped me a lot to not indulge in “I could have writer's block.”

I can, I mean, I don't have to write. I think that usually means something else is going on and we need to work through it and we need to fight through it and not indulge like, oh, I now have an excuse not to do something because writers are the worst man. We will find any excuse not to write because writing is crazy and it's super hard. It's fun if you're a kid and it's just fun, like just go with that as long as you can, but it's hard work, you know. I’ve got to sit down and do work. So we'll do all kinds of other stuff, like I need to do research, I need to do an outline, I need to build up my characters. I need to think through this. I need to do a million things that are not writing. And really we need to write. We need to show up and write. And so that's the hardest thing to do.

And so I'm just a little bit hesitant to say, like, oh, we're special. We get to have writer's block. I'm more on the side of like, hey, man, just show up and do your job. So what I do for writer's block is I just beat it up and leave it for dead in an alley and then try to... actually my favorite quotation about this, and then I'll finally shut up about your question, which is an awesome question, Josh is Jack London who said you can't wait for inspiration, you have to go after it with a club. And that's how I feel like if you're waiting for inspiration or waiting for the timing to be right or waiting for your feelings to be good or everything like or the house to be quiet or for circumstances to be good or to have enough money, like, guess what? You're waiting forever, so you got to go, you got to go. Don't wait, go after it with a club. You know. 

Ginny: Do you ever wish you could go back and change some of the details of a story line? 

Sam: Hmm, yes, do I ever wish I could go back? Oh, yeah, I do. And honestly, because I'm my own publisher, I have done that a little bit. You know, you fix some mistakes and some of your books sometimes. And so then you go back and you obviously fix those a couple of times. I've done a little bit of George Lucas thing. You know, he kind of went back and messed with Star Wars a little bit, which nobody liked. Yeah, done a little bit of that. Just kind of not a whole lot. But if something was really egregious, like I did something that was just really bad as far as like grammar or just a section where the dialog tags are dumb or something like I've gone back and fixed some of that stuff. But generally speaking, no. 

Like the truth is, so The Green Ember was the first book I wrote that was published. I've written probably 12 books since then and they're all better than The Green Ember. And some of them aren't out yet. But I'm getting better. Like you get better at stuff, but you just can't start where you're going to be. That's another reason why I'm working on a course right now for writers called The Green Writer. And that's the whole thing about it. It's part of that. We were just talking about the whole like I am not waiting. I have a green light. I'm going. I'm going. And so I'm not waiting for permission and I'm not waiting for all this stuff. I'm going as a writer. That's me. I'm a green writer. And but I'm also growing. I'm not yet what I will be, something like a green living thing. I'm going. I'm growing. So that's part of my ethos. I don't really need to go back and change it. That's who I was. But I couldn't get to where I am now without that. And that's totally fine. I needed those moments of growth. And I saw the big, big picture. I fix some things here and there, but I'm done with that. And those were pretty minor, to be honest. But my main posture is , no, that's what it is. And people fell in love with that book. And so that's what they were going to get, that I don't need a new version that I'd rather spend my time writing, writing more books and sharing more stuff. 

Ginny: So Josh's mom is in the room, on the other side of the screen. When you brought up The Green Writer Course she picked up her phone and she's searching. Is it available? 

Sam: It's coming soon. [It’s available now!] 

I've gotten so many questions from mostly kids about like, you know, what advice do you have for me as a writer? So we filmed a course. I'm really excited to share. I'm really invested in these young storytellers and young writers. Like what do I know? I don't have everything they need, but I've got something and you know, I want to share with them, so I'm excited to share with them. 

Ginny: That's exciting. All right, Josh, whatcha got?

Josh: How long does it take to write a book? 

Sam: Twelve minutes. No, I'm just kidding, man, I don't know, I'd say it depends. Some of my books are short, some of them are long. Some of them have taken like maybe a year and a half total in time. The actual writing, The Green Ember book was probably eight or nine months. My father got really sick right in the middle of when I was writing that book. And that's another thing, man. It’s amazing it ever came out because there's so much crazy stuff going on in life, really, really busy at two jobs, and young kids, coaching soccer, involved in my church. And my dad got pancreatic cancer and was really sick in the hospital for a long time. And so it was almost like a miracle that that book ever was any good at all, book one and then two ever saw the light of day. It's kind of amazing, but that's another story. 

So sometimes they take, I think Ember Rising was like three months or so in the first draft and it's my longest book. So it's just weird, you know, The Last Hour was really, really fast, like maybe two weeks or something. But that's a really short book. And some of them take like six months or nine months. It's really I would say if it was average, it would probably be something like six to eight months. But it seems like if I can get devoted time, it's quite a bit quicker than that. 

Ginny: They have have one that one last question here.

Charlie: How do you come up with the different character names? 

Sam: Coming up with different character names, initially, Heather - the main characters in the Green Ember series were named Joe and Hannah, and they were kind of named after my kids, who you guys met. It's kind of confusing because I have a brother named Josiah who works with me. And it's funny, Ginny, you're talking about family. Like our family business is like me and my brother Josiah and our brother in law, Andrew. The three of us work together. And then our wives, my sister, our kids, my daughter. And she's working for us a lot. She does a lot of work. Josiah, my son, designed the big display. He's 15 years old, and he designed that. He and I are working on a series together right now. We're writing a book series together. So, yeah, we're totally in that, like, family thing. And now I forgot your question, Charlie. Oh.

I started talking about that because the story started with my family. I started with my kids. But it wasn't very long before I was like, I don't want them to. Every time these characters do something dumb or like make a bad, I didn't want them to think I was having like a commentary on their life. I wanted them to have freedom and enjoy the story. So pretty early on, we changed the names and I just liked Heather and Pickett because they sound like cool rabbit names. I just love those.

And then really my rule for names is I hate it when I'm reading, especially like a fantasy book, and I can't pronounce the name of a character or and every time I have to stop. And what is that? That's so frustrating to me. So I wanted it to be hospitable. I didn't want kids to have to stop. So even if I use like a normal name, I almost spell it even more simply. So most of the names in the books, if not all of them, should be pretty easy to read for almost any kind of reader. And then it was just like, does it sound cool? And occasionally I'll be named somebody after a character like my brother in law. His name's Josh Hanks' and I love him. He's a great guy. And so when we call him Jo Shanks because his name is Josh Hanks, I always call him Jo Shanks. So the character of Jo Shanks, who first appears in a small way in  The Green Ember, but has a much bigger role going forward in the series. Like he just came from a goofy nickname that I had for my brother in law. And every once in a while there'd be something like that. But usually it's not something from the real world. Usually it's just like, does this make sense in this world?

I'm super committed to the whole, don't get outside of it. Like, don't try to sneak in some kind of lesson where people are reading it. They're like, oh, I see what he's talking about this controversy. Like, I just wanted it to be real in that world. I want you to, like, not be thinking all the time, like, what's he really mean. There's no allegory or anything. It's just if it rings your bells spiritually or philosophically or whatever, that's great. It does for me. But the story is very genuine. It's very like this is what's happening here. And so that was a super long answer to the question.

Ginny: It's interesting to have the mix of Heather and Pickett. You know, it's like when you have a mix, it kind of keeps you in both, right? 

Sam: Heather likes to play in the heather. So it's a very natural name.  And even Helmar, like he was just there when the kids came into Cloud Mountain. This isn't a spoiler. But he was just there and then I was like, what's his story? And so it's like a process of discovery and curiosity for me. 

The name of Helmar is still being explored, like where that came from all the way back in that story. Like there's all these connections that lead from curiosity in the books. And a lot of it has to do with names. So I love names. I'm like a big, big name person. I do care about it. But it has to feel right in the world. I don't want people to be thinking like, oh, that name means this in Hebrew or that. I don't really want people to be doing that. I wanted to kind of leave it in this world. 

Josh: Which book was your favorite to write? 

Sam:  Which book was my favorite to write? Let's see here. That's a cool way to ask it. That helps me, because a lot of people say, like which book is your favorite? And that's a little bit different than what was your favorite to write or what's the best one? I think because this might all have different answers, because The Green Ember is special to me in a lot of ways because it was so special between me and my kids. So it has a really special thing but I don't think it's the best one. 

My favorite thing to write was the third of the big books in the main series. And that's probably because that was when I quit my job and at that time I just allowed the freedom of coming out here to the forge every day, which is like 10 feet from my house, it’s like an old garden shed, which turned into an office. So I came out here to the forge and that was my only job. I worked on the book and I was just trying to devote myself to it. And I did that. And I built a fire pit for my family, which I'm not super handy, but, you know, we were out there and I had those big rocks and it's kind of like a 30 foot diameter place. We had to level it off. And it was just like a lot of physical work, which was really good for me, like emotionally healthy wise, like just being outside and doing that work was like, you know, it was good for me. And then writing the book - those were the two things I was doing and taking walks with the kids and playing soccer with them and stuff. And so that period was so special to me and I just love that book. I loved it and just enjoyed it so much.

I loved getting into Heather so much in that book. And it wasn't the last book and it wasn't the second book. The second book, you have a little bit of pressure because it's like, oh, OK, The Green Ember was good. People enjoy that, but maybe it's going to go downhill. Maybe you'll have the sophomore slump. Maybe you can't do a series. Maybe it's just going to be like one good book and people will kind of forget the rest. So there was a little bit of pressure with that. And then when you're wrapping up the series, the fourth book, there's a lot of pressure on that because it's like, oh, you got to tie up loose ends or people are going to be a little bit more pressure. But with that book, I just went for it, let it go. And it's long. And I wrote it pretty quickly and I just had joy every day writing that book. It was such a fun, such a fun experience. I loved it so much. 

Ginny: Any other questions that you guys have?

Charlie: Who is your favorite character in the series? 

Sam: All right, Charlie, I’ve got to turn that back on you, man. What about you? You tell me who's your favorite character so far? 

Charlie: I really like Helmer. 

Josh: HElmer?

Charlie: Yeah.

Sam: How about you, Josh?

Josh: Helmer. 

Sam: OK. Helmer is like such a popular character everywhere. And it's so funny because he's so mean, you know, and he does have an interesting side which I think people identify with. But people love him. And like he has a long, long way to go. I guess many people enjoy that. But he's up there for me for sure.

But I think Heather's probably my favorite. I just love her. She's the most like me. I think she's kind of an older sibling, very responsible and likes doing the right thing. She has a lot of fear about actually executing on her own vocation. And she's got a lot of compassion. But she's really strong in some ways, but she also just deals with anxiety and fear and stuff, too. So I relate to her an awful lot. And so she's probably my favorite character. 

Ginny: Well, we are wrapping it up here in a couple of minutes. I wanted to share a Bible verse knowing that not all of our listeners are Bible readers. But this is just a beautiful verse. And I think the Bible is filled with beautiful things and has a beautiful way to live our lives. And so this is Proverbs 10:17 and it reminded me of you when we first met.

It says. “He who heeds instruction and correction is not only himself in the way of life, but also is a way of life for others.” You heed instruction and correction and you are not only in the way of life, but you’re also a way of life for others. 

And it just reminded me, I think when I saw your booth and I saw all the people there and I saw your extended family and your own children, and it's very clear that you are a way of life for others in addition to being in the way of life for yourself. I was very inspired by you and your family in your story. And so if people are wanting to find more about you, if they're wanting to buy your books, if they're interested in The Green Writer Course, like my friend here, Stephanie, she's already trying to write it down, can you tell us where people can find you? What's the best way?

Sam: Thank you, Giny. That's such a kind thing to say. What a beautiful verse. And my goodness, what a blessing to give to me. Thank you. I want the Lord to give gifts to other people through the work I'm doing and gifts that lead to life. So  that blows me away. And it's so kind.

For finding me it's pretty easy. It's just SDsmith.com . That is the main place. I'm on Facebook and Instagram and I've got a newsletter. 

My marketing plan from the beginning was like, let a bunch of cool moms and families and kids tell each other about the books. They were really our sales force. We try to remove obstacles to try to make it easy so you can get The Green Ember audio book if you want, just for signing up for our newsletter. So you can get that for free just by going to SDsmith.com. 

Ginny: That's really a great offer for someone to be able to listen to the book just heading into the school year. The first one - I just have so enjoyed it. So I'm planning on reading them all. And we’ve got a lot of friends that love them. Are movies on the horizon?

Sam: Oh yeah. I think that that's a good possibility. We've spent a lot of time over the last few months talking to a lot of people and listening to different opportunities. We're not in a big hurry on that. We're not desperate. I feel like , you know, these are my kids, my babies. These are stories. And so I'm pretty persnickety about just partnering with anybody. I'm not desperate to have a movie. I'd like to do it, but it's going to be the right fit. And I can't be too perfectionist. I got to remember, Jack London - go after it and just keep going. But yeah, I'd say there’s a decent possibility that that'll be on the horizon. 

Ginny: Well, can we end with a favorite outdoor childhood memory of yours? 

Sam: Sure. Well, yeah, what comes to mind? The first one that just pops into my head, I should probably just go with that. And that is well, we lived in the holler. There were a lot of acres. Then when I was 12 we moved to South Africa. My parents were missionaries. And so we left. We loved South Africa. We loved being there. But we were like, we're always West Virginia people like that's kind of in our blood. And so spending time, this is like an indelible memory for me as a kid. And it's pretty simple.

But we were playing, I think, army or something. That's what we usually did. We would often break a stick into the shape of a rifle or something. And we were reenacting some kind of a thing. So we do swords or guns or whatever. I mean, so we were I think we were going out and we were playing kind of in this intense kind of war game kind of a thing.

And I remember wandering from the group a little bit and coming through this kind of a canopy of trees that I've never been before, a place I'd never been before, and coming through this sort of, I don't know, like a barrier of bushes and walking through it and into this place that was like it had rocks. And it seemed enormous to me. But I'm sure it was pretty small rocks and moss and it was soft and with a little bit of dew in there. And there was kind of a light shining through and a kind of a mist, almost like a rainbow inside this little house was almost a little canopy of it was like a little fantasy canopy. And I can remember even as a child it arrested me and filled me with feelings that I didn't know how to express. But it was all reverence, gratitude. It was really an encounter with beauty that was really that I'll never forget. 

Ginny: And it sounds like you're describing a chapter in your book.

Sam: Yeah, maybe so. Yeah. It was kind of a beautiful haunting kind in a positive way and just always stayed with me like the world has a capacity for beauty that can be so surprising and reverent and glorious and it's kind of small, but it is in my heart a lot. I like small, I like thinking small. So I'm a big fan of doing the small things.

Ginny: This has been such an absolute pleasure. Thanks for hanging out with me and with Charlie and Josh. Josh, thanks for joining in. I think it's really special that you guys are here and spend this hour with us. We will continue to spread the word. We love your books and are really excited about The Green Ember Writer Course. So thank you so much for your time. 

Same: My pleasure. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Ginny. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, Josh. It was such a pleasure to be with you guys today.